Anti-war, peace activist Cindy Sheehan scored
an interview with Venezuela President Hugo Chavez
and Bolivia President Evo Morales recently in Caracas.
Photo courtesy Cindy Sheehan’s Soapbox
By Cindy Sheehan, (transcribed by Regina Freitag, original Translation by Eva Golinger)
March 26, 2010
Cindy Sheehan: Welcome to this video and audio audition of Cindy Sheehan’s SoapBox.
Presidente Chavez, thank you for being on the show, thank you for this interview and thank you for allowing me to bring the truth about Venezuela and about you and about your revolution to the people of the United States.
Before the revolution, Venezuela was a nation that was ruled and used up by the oligarchy, the elite. How did your revolution begin, how did it manage to remain relatively peaceful?
Hugo Chavez: Thank you Cindy, for this interview, for your efforts, that are so honorable and notable, to try to find out our truth and to contribute to its diffusion. And we wish you much luck in your struggles, which are ours as well, against war, for peace, for freedom and equality and against imperialism. We accompany you in your struggles. You and the people of the United States. We love them the same. The bourgeoisie of Venezuela has always dominated the country, for more than a hundred years. And they dominated it with force, using violence, persecution, assassination and disappearances. Unfortunately, the Venezuelan history is a history full of a lot of violence, violence from the strong against the weak. In the 20th century, Venezuela, which was dominated by the oligarchy and the bourgeois state, the rich, the wealthy, produced a reversed type of miracle, we could say. Venezuela was the first exporter of oil from the beginning of the 1920s until the 1970s. One of the largest producers of petroleum in the world throughout all the 20th century. And when the 20th century ended, with the domination of the bourgeoisie, despite all the wealth, Venezuela had more than 70% poverty and 40% extreme poverty, misery, misery, misery. So that generated an explosion, a violent one. All explosions are violent. An explosion of the poor, to liberate themselves. We were remembering just 2 days ago in Caracas. You were there with us, with our people. 21 years ago, the people woke, arose in a big explosion. And as military we were used by the bourgeoisie to massacre the people, children, women, and older people. And then that awoke something in the young military folks, a consciousness of pain and then we joined with the people. We had two rebellions, military rebellions, popular (inaudible ). A revolution isn’t exactly peaceful. As you said it was relatively peaceful.
Cindy Sheehan: Yes, relatively, yeah
Hugo Chavez: Just like all true revolutions.
Cindy Sheehan: But doesn’t the violence of revolutions sometimes come from the counter-revolution? And the Bolivarian revolution that has transferred power and wealth to the people is an inspiration and has remained relatively peaceful.
Hugo Chavez: Yes, we got the power in a peaceful way.
Cindy Sheehan: Right.
Hugo Chavez: Exactly, and we have been able to maintain it relatively peaceful. We’ve never used violence. They’ve used it against us. The counter-revolution. So the central strategy of our peaceful and socialist revolution is to transfer the power to the people. I’m sure you have been able to see some of it with your own eyes, in the neighborhoods of Caracas.
Cindy Sheehan: Yes I have.
Hugo Chavez: We have made efforts were to help the people to be sovereign. When we talk about power, what are we talking about, Cindy? The first power that we all have is knowledge. So we’ve made efforts first in education, against illiteracy, for the development of thinking, studying, analysis. In a way, that has never happened before. Today, Venezuela is a giant school, it’s all a school. From children of one year old until old age, all of us are studying and learning.
And then political power, the capacity to make decisions, the community councils, communes, the people’s power, the popular assemblies.
And then there is the economic power. Transferring economic power to the people, the wealth of the people distributed throughout the nation. I believe that is the principal force that precisely guarantees that the Bolivarian revolution continues to be peaceful.
Cindy Sheehan: Wonderful. In a speech the other day, you said that the United States demonizes you, demonizes Venezuela and the revolution. I of course have seen it with my own eyes and have been a defender of you and Venezuela and the revolution. Why do you think the Empire makes such a concerted effort to demonize you?
Hugo Chavez: I think for different reasons. But I came to the conclusion there is one particular strong reason, a big reason. They are afraid, the Empire is afraid. The Empire is afraid that the people of the United States might find out about the truth, they are afraid that something like that could erupt on their own territory. A Bolivarian movement. Or a Lincoln movement. A movement of citizens, conscious citizens with the goal to transform the system. Imperial fear killed Martin Luther King. The only way to stop him was to kill him and repressing the people of the United States. So, why do they demonize us? They know – those who direct the Empire – they know the truth. But they fear the truth. They fear the contagious effect. They fear a revolution in the United States. They fear an awakening of the people in the United States. And so that’s why they do everything they can. And they achieve it, relatively, that a lot of sectors in the United States see us as devils. No one wants to copy the devil.
Cindy Sheehan: Right.
Hugo Chavez: Unless they are devils too. And the people aren’t devils. The people are the voice of God.
Cindy Sheehan: Well, one of the biggest names they call you in the United States is dictator. Can you explain to my listeners and the people, for the benefit of this documentary why you are not a dictator?
Hugo Chavez: In the first place, personally, I am against dictatorships. I’m an anti-dictator. We are here in Uruguay, in Montevideo. You know how many dictatorships were in this country. The Guerrilla army. I’m an anti-Guerrilla. In addition to that, from a political point of view, I’ve been elected one, two, three, four times, by popular vote. In Venezuela, we have elections all the time. Every year, we have elections in Venezuela. One time, Lula, the president of Brazil… when he was in Europe, someone asked him “Why are you friends with that dictator Chavez?” And Lula said a big truth: “In Venezuela, there is an excess of democracy. Every year there are elections. And if there aren’t any, Chavez invents them. Referendums, popular consultations, elections for governors, mayors. Right now, soon we are starting national assembly elections, this year. In 2012 there is going to be a presidential election again. What dictator is elected so many times? What dictator convenes referendums? I’m an anti-dictator. I am a revolutionary. A democratic revolutionary.
Cindy Sheehan: Well, I have witnessed this revolution. I’ve witnessed the empowerment of the people of Venezuela, which is very inspiring, because the people in the United States don’t feel this empowerment. I even rode the Metrocable, and I’m afraid of heights. But I went out to San Augustin and then walked down the steps and saw how that so-called dictatorship has made the life of the people much better here in Venezuela. Also in the commemoration of the Caracazo you announced that you will again going to run for president in 2012. You’ve come a long way, but there is still a long way to go. What do you still think needs to be accomplished as far as infrastructure and the needs of the people in Venezuela?
Hugo Chavez: To tell you in a mathematical way, despite everything we’ve done in education, healthcare, infrastructure, housing, employment, social security, etc., mathematically, I believe, of everything we’ve done and we have to achieve for the people, we have achieved about 10%. It’s been 200 years of abandonment. The people have been abandoned. All the wealth of the country was in the hands of the elite. We talk about the bicentennial cycle, 2010 to 2030, we have to work really hard. In every aspect, infrastructure etc. I hope that you, in a few years, won’t just go up in the metrocable in San Augustin, but all of Caracas is going to have metrocables, and everywhere, every place, housing, reconstruction in poor neighborhoods, the construction of new cities for the people and dignified housing, there is still a lot to do, to achieve what Simon Bolivar said. Bolivar taught us…
(Pres. Evo Morales comes in)
Hugo Chavez: Oh look! Evo is here. Evo, come and sit down! Bolivar taught us that the best government is the one that gives the people the best amount of happiness. That’s our goal. The best, the largest amount of happiness.
My friend Evo, the president of Bolivia, who just got here, he is an indigenous leader! Brother how are you?
Evo Morales: Good, good.
Cindy Sheehan: Presidente Morales. Mucho gusto. So nice to meet you.
Hugo Chavez (introduces Cindy): Cindy Sheehan. She is a fighter for peace, against the war. She is a US citizen. One of her sons died in Iraq. So, she’s interviewing us. And maybe you want to answer a question.
Evo Morales: (gives Indian blessing)
Hugo Chavez: To live well. It’s a Mala Indian philosophy. To live well, a good live. To live well, spiritually, intellectually, physically, that’s what it’s about.
Cindy Sheehan: Thank you, that’s what it should be about. I have one final question.
Thank you for your generosity. This has been really wonderful. Maybe Presidente Morales could have some input about this too. We see your rise to power in Venezuela as kind of a grassroots movement that has been spreading and has helped President Morales in Bolivia, and we see people all over South America taking back the power. Because the power belongs in the hands of the people. A couple of weeks ago in the United States, a man flew his airplane into the tax building in Austin, Texas. Did you hear about that?
Evo Morales/ Hugo Chavez: Yes.
Cindy Sheehan: There is much frustration with the system. And there is a lot of that frustration in the United States. But instead of flying planes into buildings we should find each other and organize. In the United States of course, we are now a system that is also for the elite, ruled by the elite, it’s a “corporatocracy”, it’s for the corporate elite. Of course, in my opinion, I believe the United States need the same grassroots revolution, power back to the people, that you’ve all had here in South America. Can you give us some words of inspiration to encourage us, to give us the courage and heart for a true revolutionary change?
Hugo Chavez: We were the same, dominated, persecuted, and also there was a lot of desperation, just like that man who flew the plane into the building. There is a lot of that, of lot of those impulses, suicidal tendencies. Now, that’s NOT the path. The path is consciousness, a conscious awakening. Evo was persecuted, from very young, I met him when he was an Assembly member, and they threw him out of Congress, and they persecuted him, they jailed him, a lot of his fellow strugglers died. And us too, we had our own experiences. A lot of our brothers died as well, a lot of us went to prison. But consciousness. That’s why you’re doing the right thing. The path is not to fly a plane into a building. It’s to create consciousness. And then the rest will come on its own. I’d like to take this moment to say hello to people of the United States. And us here in the South, we have a lot of faith. And the people in the North are going to wake up. Just like you have woken. Just like many have had an awakening. You can do great changes in the United States, and in a peaceful way, I hope. Because, what happens in the United States, those changes in the United States depend a lot…the future of the world depends on that a lot.
(Pres. Chavez addresses Pres. Morales) Evo, would you like to say something?
Cindy Sheehan: Please!
Evo Morales: I just finished a meeting with Eduardo Galliano.
Cindy Sheehan: Oh, I know him.
Evo Morales: He’s so inspirational with the people, about nature. Galliano is also going to the inauguration of Pepe Mujica. (Pres. Morales and Pres. Chavez talk to each other.) And he’s going to bring some strategies, proposals, and we’re going to have a meeting with Galliano and the cocoa workers …
Cindy Sheehan: Oh. Very wonderful.
Evo Morales: To talk about equality and our experiences. The difficult things, how to unite us and to raise our consciousness. What you’re talking about. The power resides with the people. I was just with Commandante Borhez, Thomas Borhez from Nicaragua. We were talking about issues of consciousness in Peru, in Colombia, on how to build a big political movement. But the issue is unity. In my experience, first the (inaudible), the marginalized, we united first, the farmers and the indigenous. And from that it went on. Just like that unity, we need to do that with the political parties on the left and then the workers unite. Those are the forces that we have, the power that the people have. To get there is hard, you have to raise consciousness.
Cindy Sheehan: My documentary is called “We are all Americans”. It comes from when I was being interviewed on Fox News and Sean Hannity told me how could I meet with the anti-American dictator Hugo Chavez. And I said: ”But Sean, he is an American”. We are all Americans and that’s where the consciousness has to be raised and the unity has to come from in realizing that.
And so, it’s been my highest honor to sit with you, Presidente, thank you for your hospitality and that of Venezuela and to finally meet you. I was invited to Bolivia to help to support you for your recall, but I was running for Congress against Nazi policy in the United States. It was a bad time. I lost. (laughs) I didn’t win.
Hugo Chavez: But we will prevail.
Cindy Sheehan: We will be victorious. Thank you so much.
Hugo Chavez: We have to end, but I want to say something to you. Just about 5 days ago, we were in Cancun. We were on our way out from the hotel and the press was there, and there were some tourists – from California. So I went up to them and I said hi to a woman and her child and another woman. A lot of affection. It was spontaneous. And then I told my friends. I found tourists. I found US tourists. Older adults, young women, men, adolescents. I’ve met with them in Japan, Moscow, Beijing, in the Caribbean, everywhere in the world, in Buenos Aires. I’ve never felt one look of hate, but rather affection, so I think that despite everything, I believe the people of the United States in the depths of their hearts, they know how to appreciate where lies are and where the truth is. That’s why we have such hope. And here is my heart for those people of the United States. They call us anti-US-leaders, anti-American leaders, but we are not. We are anti-imperialist. But we love the people of the United States. We love humanity.
Cindy Sheehan: Muchas Gracias!
Cindy Sheehan
Cindy Sheehan is the Nobel peace prize nominated mother of Spc. Casey Austin Sheehan who was killed in Sadr City, Iraq, April 4, 2004. She has been on an international quest for peace and accountability since then. She has written three books and numerous published articles. Cindy is currently running as a "Decline to State" independent candidate in the 8th District of California against Speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi.
The Hunger Site
March 27, 2010 at 10:28 pm
So many good points made on this thread. For my part, I am also nauseated with Cindy’s syncophantism which smugly masquerades as something “the corporate media” is incapable of revealing or “truth” straight from the charming jackass’s mouth. Unfortunately, this propaganda is all too common in U.S. liberal circles. For years I’ve been trying to get a better understanding of what life is like for Venezuelans under Chavez but such info is extremely hard to come by — especially for someone who doesn’t speak Spanish.
I would love to get the thoughts of the middle-class students that are *successfully* protesting the Chavez human rights abuses to the OAS, some hard data on the infamous and much-feared Venezuelan intelligence apparatus (DISIP), and more info on the profound corruption and clientalism that has blossomed under Chavez’s watch and, after 11 years in power, he is still pinning on prior administrations. The motherfucker can’t even keep the lights on!
March 27, 2010 at 7:06 pm
Cindy,
Good effort! And congratulations on landing the interview.
It’s really too bad that Americans know so little about what’s really going on in Venezuela. All you hear is negativity from a corporate media that detests any economic model except predatory capitalism. Unfortunately it’s absolutely poisoned the atmosphere to the extent that people’s minds are completely closed. Even many on the left in America accept the framework that Chavez is a dictator.
We could bring up proof of free and fair elections, huge improvements in living standards, the fact that the opposition still controls the media in spite of all the talk about Chavez “shutting down” opposition press, so many statistics that could make your head spin, but I don’t think it would matter for a lot of people.
Still, I applaud you for bringing this interview to the US. Americans need to hear it, and much more like it. Americans don’t hear anything from the other side. We get virtually 100% anti-Chavez propaganda, and when we hear a voice like yours, demand that you include “balance.”
Sort of reminds me of the media situation in Venezuela itself, where an capitalist oligarchy accustomed to owning a near 100% stake in the media, is suddenly confronted with a president who wants to use the laws already on the books to break up monopolies, do something about media consolidation, and give voice to people who have never before had a voice in the media. Now, in the course of 12 years, they’ve gone from a 100% stake (in the hands of a few wealthy families at that) to maybe a 70% stake, and for the first time ever they have to hear a few voices that oppose the “savage project of neoliberalism.” So what do they do? They complain that they’re being “silenced,” when nothing could be further from the truth.
Keep at it, Cindy!
March 27, 2010 at 5:48 pm
re: PepeTrueno
Good dialog!
March 27, 2010 at 1:58 pm
Re: Livingston
I am sure that a lot of Ms. Sheehan’s behavior has to do with the senseless death of her son (or so many others as well). Yet, it is precisely because of it that she should have a better understanding of how the world works. And, it is because of that understanding that I would expect her to be much more careful when trying to uncover the truth… particularly when the reality that she’s trying to explore is one completely foreign to her own. As someone else already mentioned (Venezolano_Puro) Ms. Shehan does not have the slightest clue what it is to be a Venezuelan or what it is like to be living in Venezuela. Modesty and prudence are qualities we all should try hard to exercise.
As for your admiration for Chavez I understand your point. It is also the reason why so many people elected him to office back in 1998. It is as well the reason as to why I despise him so deeply… he simply has taken all of us for fools. Some of the poor do still believe in him. This is rapidly changing as finally it is becoming clear to them that what they are getting are bread crumbs in comparison of all what they should be really getting. As far as I am concerned Chavez is a traitor to our country… plain and simple. Hard words I know but in reality it is what I am positively convinced.
Whatever amount of money went to Stone and Weisbrot wasn’t Chavez to give away in the first place. You may find my suggestion amusing, but after 11 years of seeing Hugo Chavez giving away our resources as if they were their personal coffer you could understand my skepticism that this is not the case. Ask Danny Glover.
Last, be very careful with The Revolution will not be televised. It is a crafty movie and one that is filled with manipulations and inaccuracies as to what really happened back in 2002., I would suggest you watch “The Revolution Will not be Televised -Radiography of a lie-” which you can find in You Tube at
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3378761249364089950#
Also, please read “The Silence and the Scorpion” from Brian Nelson (English and available at Amazon) that offers a more balanced and true perspective on the issue. Cheers!
March 27, 2010 at 12:12 pm
Last December the OAS released a very critical report on freedom under the Chavez regime:
http://cidh.org/pdf%20files/VENEZUELA%202009%20ENG.pdf
March 27, 2010 at 11:41 am
Re: PepeTrueno
Your comments are good ones– I am sorry I had not read your first one before posting my first one.
Of course I am only expressing my opinion– but I was thinking that Cindy Sheehan will explore any potential alliance if she thinks it will result in first answers to why her son had to die in Iraq and second to save others from a similar fate. It is not that she would make a deal with the devil if need be– rather I think she (possibly sometimes) naively believes she can influence the devil to change his or her ways.
I am sorry I did not express that my stated admiration for Chavez is based mostly on an optimism that he is a champion on behalf of the poor and oppressed. Maybe the fact that I used the word “frankly” (a flag word that psychoanalysts would describe as usually indicating the opposite) should have warned me that my enthusiasm for Chavez should have been explored more deeply. (I don’t like his crude bluster or his apparent designs on holding personal power.) Although I have no faith in Noam Chomsky in whom Chavez had put so much stock, I generally respect the opinions of writers like Tariq Ali, Mike Weisbrot, and John Pilger who defend Chavez although I ultimately distrust any consensus opinion (as I’ve stated before here at FCJ).
The world is not black and white. If true that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely– there is always cause for alarm when anyone has too much power– even when they claim to be on the side of truth and justice.
As to how much Venezuelan money might have gone to financing Stone’s movie (an amusing conjecture!), anything would surely pale in comparison to the U.S. dollars spent trying to subvert and control the Venezuelan government and resources.
Without yet viewing the final product, one might conjecture that Stone’s movie, ostensibly on Chavez’s side, might be financed by some who wish to ultimately undo him.
One of the very best movies I have seen lately was China Blue (http://www.teddybearfilms.com/chinablue) in which an independent journalist appealed to the vanity of a sweatshop owner to give his crew unlimited access to his blue jeans factory. Thus he exposed the continuing cruel practices behind the labels we pay premium prices for.
Still a favorite is This Revolution Will Not Be Televised (http://tinyurl.com/ycdk5dr)
Open to question (as well as China Blue), the film accomplished portraying a perspective that seldom gets attention from the establishment media.
March 27, 2010 at 6:33 am
I have traveled to Venezuela twice in the past several years. Chavez envisions a modern day “Bolivarian Revolution,” a Latin American political block with a socialist bent as an alternative to U.S. hegemony. Chavez has spent more than the U.S. in aid to Latin America and the Caribbean in an effort to blunt U.S.-backed economic policies in Latin America. And he hasn’t forgotten the Bush administration financing an abortive coup against him in 2003. He has made an international reputation with his strident opposition to U.S. policies in Latin America, which find a sympathetic ear in many Latin American countries and certainly to his constituency, his Chavistas, the forgotten poor of past Venezuelan administrations. But I too am concerned that the “socialist revolutionary” is morphing into a dictator for life.
March 26, 2010 at 10:45 pm
@Livingston:
– Asking the hard questions is not “just” useful, it is honest. How can someone that pretends to bring the truth does that without addressing the real issues?
– “The enemy of my enemy is my friend” is a poor excuse to associate oneself with seedy characters.
– What makes you think that Venezuelans have taken their destiny on their own hand and have escaped oppression? In reality, we Venezuelans are still as oppressed as before. Only the thugs responsible of that oppression have changed. Even worse, at this point in time we are being ruled by an authoritarian regime that’s starting to squash any one and any thing that disagrees with its vision of the world. Talk about progress and liberation.
– Oliver Stone and Mark Weisbrot? I wonder how much Venezuelan money was spent on that one.
March 26, 2010 at 10:12 pm
I wonder what makes Cindy think that she can bring any degree of truth about Venezuela or Chavez. That is a very, but very, presumptuous statement coming from someone with her credentials. First of all, you are not Venezuelan and most likely you cannot even speak Spanish. Second, the one or two times you have been in my country you have done so probably in a protected bubble and have been shown whatever they want you to see.
I am positive that you have not had to chase toilette paper to wipe your behind through numerous supermarkets like we do.
I am positive you have not had to plan what you have to eat around what you can actually can find ( as oppose to what you want) at the supermarket.
I am positive you have not been thrown in jail for issuing an opinion that the government finds “offensive”.
I am positive that your business has not been stolen from you by the government.
I am positive you have not had family or friends killed by a thug because there is no police to protect you despite the fact of having a government that finances police department in other countries.
I am positive that your electricity does not go out three or four times a week for several hours each time while your government finances the construction of electric plants in other places.
I am positive you don’t have to live with a 30% yearly inflation that converts your salary in a meaningless number,
I am positive you don’t have to sit through hours of daily verbal diarrhea from a president that forces every tv and radio station to broadcast his non sense when he should be working hard to improve the conditions of those who elected him to office.
I am positive Cindy that you have no clue about what it is like to be a Venezuelan.
So, please, “Por que no the callas?” and stick to your little whining in **your** own country.
March 26, 2010 at 9:32 pm
It agree it would have been helpful if she had asked a few pointed questions if only to clear things up a bit.
Cindy is much less a reporter than a political activist who gravitates to perceived allies in the struggle against shared enemies. If “something stinks in Denmark”– whether at an initial tete a tete with Bush or with Pelosi– or with two revolutionary leaders in South America– she will no doubt catch on to it quick.
Chavez’s and Morales’s professed love for us and humanity sounds clumsy to my gringo ears. They have much to learn about how to sell themselves to an American public who prefer to buy style over substance and who seldom ask tough questions of their own leaders.
Maybe Oliver Stone’s anticipated movie based on a screenplay by Tariq Ali and Mark Weisbrot will flesh out a better picture for American skeptics who require a Hollywood endorsement for the sincerity of public figures. (How anyone could collaborate with Stone after his resurrection of the senior Bush as a wise patrician in his movie W is a question I will ponder a long time.)
I admire the people in Venezuela and Bolivia for taking destiny into their own hands after hundreds of years of oppression. I frankly admire Chavez in spite of some of his obvious flaws. There is no question that a sophisticated disinformation campaign and covert struggle is directed against him and anyone else who dissents against the so-called Washington Consensus charged with spreading mayhem and oppression worldwide.
In spite of her canniness and resilience, I pray that no one will try to use Cindy as a pawn or patsy in that struggle.
March 26, 2010 at 9:03 pm
Dear Ms. Cindy: What a revulsion I feel from reading this piece of communist propaganda. You are making a huge disservice to the Venezuelan people by publishing this crock. Why don’t you ask Hugo about the corruption in Venezuela, about how his cronies have stolen from all Venezuelans, about how HIS family has become immensely rich, about how crime related death have quadrupled during his tenure, about the lack of freedom of expression, about all the money that belongs to Venezuelans and which he has given away to other countries to further his communist agenda, about his continuos discurse of hate and intolerance.
You should feel ashamed of yourself… worse yet, you are disrespecting the memory of your son.
March 26, 2010 at 7:04 pm
No tough questions whatsoever. Nothing about his moves to become president for life. Nothing about the rampant corruption and bribery. Cindy, all this amount to is an infomercial for Chavez. Journalism it is not.
March 26, 2010 at 1:16 pm
No questions about press freedom, or about the arrest of reporters and newspaper publishers? Heck, Sean Hannity asks harder questions to Karl Rove…